There’s a lot of like atheists and and secular people that just like to dismiss Christianity as being foolish. You know, it’s just fairy tales. I hear that amongst, you know, self-p profofessed intelligent people. Like, it’s it’s a fairy tale. I’m like, I don’t know if that’s true. Um I I think I think there’s more to it.
I think it’s history. >> You know, I used to love all that new atheist stuff. But >> me, too. But a lot of those guys fell apart. [laughter] >> And all those guys get real pnicity. They don’t they don’t seem very enlightened. They don’t seem like they’re at peace. >> This is a very very different type of conversation than you would have heard on the Joe Rogan Experience 5 or 10 years ago. That’s for sure.
Let’s get into this. >> We we were having this conversation yesterday and I said to Constantin, “The great thing about an ideology is it gives you certainty.” >> The terrible thing about an ideology is >> it gives you certainty. [laughter] >> That is so true. And it’s also the appealing thing about it. Oh yeah. >> You know, I’ve always been attracted to the idea that these people like really believe like it’s fascinating when I watch like super religious people that are praying five times a day and I’m like like that is amazing. Like look how
dedicated they are to that thing. Like there’s an attractiveness to that. Like God, I wish I was like if I was that dedicated to something, I’d probably be like way more stable in my life. Yeah. you know, because you’re just locked in and everybody believes and you know, you see people talking about the religion with utmost certainty like I wish I was that certain.
>> Now, this conversation you’re going to see is going to progress past that of just pick an ideology, any ideology, and that’ll that’ll work. It’s going to move past that um in a really interesting way. So, let’s keep going here. >> Wish I was that certain. Those guys are so certain they’re willing to die.
Like, [snorts] >> it also it also gives you like a lot of inner peace. It does. Like >> if you don’t have that, which I don’t and I I’ve got a friend who’s who’s a devout Muslim and he’s >> and he’s going through tough times at the moment and I say to him like, “H how do you get through this?” And he’s like, “Bro, I’ve got my religion.
I’ve got God. And I know everything’s going to be okay.” He’s a great guy. And he goes, “I pray five times a day. It really helps me. And it makes me realize and understand that what I’m going through is part of his plan.” It’s part of his plan. Mhm. >> It’s worth putting a pin in this and saying yes, even for a Muslim as opposed to an atheist or something.
There is actually a benefit, a general grace, a general benefit um that you have by understanding that there is a God above you and that and if that’s true, then you’re from somewhere, you’re for something. There’s, you know, in in a sense there’s truth in every religion, but that’s a separate question than which religion is actually ultimately true.
If the religions of the world make competing truth claims, right, like the law of the excluded middle, they can’t all be true at the same time and in the same sense. We’ll get into that momentarily, but for now, let’s keep going. >> Yeah. If you really do believe that, it definitely will help you. >> I haven’t got there, but I have started going to church every now and again.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Do you enjoy it? >> I love it. >> Yeah, >> it’s a b I do too. It’s a bunch of people that are going to try to make their lives better. They’re trying to be a better person and they’re trying to I mean for me at least the place that I go to they you know they read and um analyze passages in the Bible.
I’m really interested in what these people were trying to say because I don’t think it’s nothing. There’s a lot of like atheists and and secular people that just like to dismiss Christianity is being foolish. You know, it’s just fairy tales. I hear that amongst, you know, self-professed intelligent people like it’s it’s a fairy tale.
like I don’t know if that’s true. Um I I think I think there’s more to it. I think it’s history, but I think it’s a confusing history. It’s a confusing history because it was a long time ago. And it’s people telling things in an oral tradition, then writing things down in a language that you don’t understand, in the context of a culture that you don’t understand.
And I think there’s something to what they’re saying. I think there’s a reason why they all have a flood myth. M >> I think there’s a reason they all have a very similar story of catastrophic floods and chaos and then that jives with what geologists are finding and what these people are finding that are exploring the younger giest impact theory that there was there was floods massive enormous amounts of water that are instantaneously released from melting ice caps all over the world because of comet impacts like it happened. There’s ev there’s physical
evidence of this happening and I think that’s what they’re trying to say in these stories. I just think it’s so confusing. It’s so confusing because you’re dealing with a time so long ago you you bar when we talk about how different people live today on earth but way more similar >> today than we would be reacting or interacting with a society that existed 6,000 years ago.
>> Galileo said this the best. He says God has given us two books. the book of nature and the book of scripture or the book of his world and the book of his word. Galileo says these these two books, if they’re actually from the same source, will actually never contradict each other, will never compete with each other.
They’ll never they’ll never be a a disparity between these two books if they’re both actually given to us by God. But there’s a problem because you have people interpreting the book of nature. That’s called science. And you have people interpreting the book of scripture, that’s called theology. So science and theology can are both possibly going to contradict.
If you have a wrong interpretation and a right interpretation, you can have a conflict. But if you have two right interpretations, you’re not going to have a conflict. But I think what he’s recognizing that there’s an internal claim within scripture being stated and an external event that that claim is actually attached to.
There’s the book of God’s word and there’s the exterior book of God’s world. And they actually they actually unify. They’re actually two sides of the same coin in a sense. Let’s keep going. So, you’re writing things down on animal skins frantically and hiding them in clay clay jars and kuman and like I hope somebody finds this someday.
And then thousands of years later, someone does. >> They find these ancient scrolls and they pull them out and they’re they’re versions of stories from the Bible. So, these people have been telling these same stories for thousands of years. Like, well, okay, what were they trying to say? That’s what’s interesting to me. >> I don’t think it’s nothing.
>> No. No, >> I think there’s something to it and there’s a reason why it resonates with people and Christianity in particular is the most fascinating to me because there’s this one person that everybody agrees existed that somehow or another had the best plan for how a human being should interact with each other and behave and was the best example of it and even died in a nonviolent way like didn’t even protest died on the cross supposedly for our sins.
Like it’s a fascinating story >> and he didn’t say it by name but when he’s talking about Kuman and things being placed in jars he’s talking about the Dead Sea Scrolls he has in his mind probably certainly the great Isaiah scroll and the whole conversation with Wes Huff and all of that where you have not just some story some information but you have Isaiah 53.
You have the entire book of Isaiah intact in pre uh pre-incarnation before Jesus talking about Jesus. That’s going to become relevant in a second here. >> What does it represent though? That’s the real thing. What was that? Like what happened? Who was Jesus Christ if it was a human being? What was that? That’s wild. >> Well, Jordan’s idea, as I understand it, is that the point of the of the story, if you like, is it’s about voluntary self-sacrifice.
It’s about the fact that to have a good society, people have to be willing to sacrifice something of themselves >> for others. And that’s what what Jesus is and that story is supposed to inspire in all of us. >> Well, but it’s a historical human being, too, though. >> Yeah. >> It’s a historically documented human being.
That’s where it gets weird cuz there’s a there’s a universal depiction of what this human being was like that doesn’t seem to vary that much between all the people that knew him. That gets weird, >> you know. See, this is amazing. So, I I I like I cannot even believe what I’m seeing right now. Yes. And right, yes, Jesus is the ideal human being.
Yes, he does have the highest ethical teaching. Yes, he is in a sense like a myth. And thank you, Joe. He is a historic person. This is that classic CS Lewis path that you go down where you go, “Wait a second. Is it possible that there is a true myth? Is it possible that the reason that myths all share these attributes in common is because they’re actually human imagination developing and reflecting something that’s actually literally true? Are we the damsel in distress? is he the hero come to save us etc etc do we manifest these stories because they are
our story let’s keep going >> you in if you go to Jerusalem you can go to the garden of the Gethsemane and for those people who don’t know that’s where Jesus was arrested by the Roman soldiers it still exists you can go there 2,000 years later >> wow >> and you just literally walk around this place you’re just like my god like the connection to those stories it’s just it’s right there.
I >> actually have a rock on this bookshelf that that is from the archaeological site of the house of King David that is now undisputed, but that didn’t come about until the ’90s. So, the point is the more that we dig, the more that we when we understand, the more that it is clear that the stories of the Bible are things that actually took place at that location in history.
And if you don’t [clears throat] have something to believe in there, you don’t there’s not a thing that you follow that you believe is making you be a better version of yourself, be a better person. If you’re just relying on your whims and your, you know, whatever you think is the moral thing to do, you know, then you know what you get? You get those people that are unable to answer the question of whether or not you should protect an unborn fetus or whether or not they have human rights.
>> No, no, no, they don’t. And they just they just like that’s what you get. That’s what you get when you have no religion. >> Yeah. >> If you have religion, you go, “Wow, that’s a good question. It’s a very good question.” >> If you are truly a truth seeker, you will realize that there is much more going on to this experience that we’re all having here on planet Earth than just matter and motion.
And I think Joe is on a very beautiful trajectory right now. His curiosity is paying off. He’s barking up the right tree. He’s connecting dots and I love to see it. I’m I am here for every step of the way. >> Also, as well, you know, when we look at the new atheist movement, and that’s something that I really followed, you know, Dawkins and all these kind of people who pointed out the ridiculousness of certain religions, etc., etc.
, >> and then we don’t need religion. I think that’s fundamentally inaccurate. I think human beings need religion. >> I don’t know if you need it, but it definitely can help. >> But I think societies need it. >> Yeah. But I don’t I just think it’s silly to dismiss all these stories as being useless. >> Totally.
>> I just I I think they were trying to say something, >> right? >> And I don’t know what that something is, but the deeper you dive into it, the more interesting it gets. >> Yeah. Well, last time we had Richard on the show, if you remember, we kind of pushed him on this. >> Yeah.
and his aunt, as far as we could get is he was like, “Well, you know, maybe it’s a it’s a story that’s useful, but it’s still not true.” And I’m going, “Well, if it’s useful, maybe we should hang on to it for a little bit.” You know, do we want to throw away something that’s useful because we’re so fixated on literal truth when this is a perhaps a metaphor for something, right? >> Perhaps. Yeah.
>> You know, and and even there, Joe’s like, “Perhaps.” And I think Joe’s like, “Yeah, that’s a problem. It’s not it’s not just a cool story. It’s not just you can’t just call it a fairy tale. You can’t just call it a myth when it actually took place in history. That’s that is the dynamic tension here that is moving Joe forward, I believe.
Let’s keep going. >> No. Um so yeah, I’ve kind of moved on on that. I I was, you know, I used to love all that new atheist stuff, but >> me too. But a lot of those guys fell apart. [laughter] >> And all those guys get real pnicity. You don’t they don’t seem very enlightened. they don’t seem like they’re at peace, >> which is interesting, you know, cuz uh that’s the the true Christians that I’ve met.
And I’ve met some like legitimate like very charitable, kind Christians, >> they’re some of the happiest and kindest people I’ve ever met. >> And that’s borne out in the in the statistics as well. Yeah, these three gentlemen on the Joe Rogan podcast following the path of the conversation that they did recognizing that there isn’t just an abstract metaphorical top value at the top of the hierarchy of values type of truth that Jesus is.
He’s also historic actual and literally true. And those two types of truth merge on Jesus in Nazareth in history. And they cause all of us to have to face the question of was he really who he said that he was? Is it actually possible that the creator of the universe entered in to the story? Like Shakespeare writing himself into Hamlet in order to buy back man for himself in order to make a way that we can be reunited with ultimate reality himself.
Is the Christian story actually true? If it is, it’s extremely good news. If it if it is true, um it is the best possible news for every single person because we are all a part of the problem of evil. And there is no other known solution to the problem of evil other than this gift that Jesus has given us of his innocence.
Jesus as both being just and the justifier for of all of us. If God were to totally eradicate evil at midnight tonight, none of us are left at 1:00 a.m. But God’s solution to the problem of evil is Jesus. I will suffer the consequences of evil myself and I will give as a free gift innocence, forgiveness, grace to anybody.
I mean, he died like this, right? He literally died with his arms outstretched. Come one, come all. Come all ye who are heavy laden and I will give you rest. The arms of God are outstretched in the person of Jesus. inviting anybody in through his sacrifice to have relationship with our creator. It’s an amazing story.
I think they’re starting to recognize there’s good reasons to believe that it’s also a true story. And if it’s a true story, it has obviously massive implications for every single individual. It gives us answers to the biggest questions of philosophy. Where are we from? What are we for? Where are we going? I’ll leave it at that for now. Thanks for watching.
you guys in the next one.
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